Curse

Linkusmax · Apr 06, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gale Force

This is your opinion to which you are entitled, but do NOT state it like it is a matter of fact.

Many will strive to create specific team make-ups and some may not find it so easy to get into groups due to either their chosen profession or they do not wish to play a specific cookie cutter build. I don't play a mesmer, but I have heard a few talking about difficulty getting into groups. I also know most of the groups I am in rarely have a mesmer in it.

Personally I am all for choices. If you want to create your team of four before hitting the enter mission button than I say good for you. However those who would rather hit the button without seeking out a team I feel should have that choice as well.

And if you really think that it will stop leavers I think you are very wrong. It will take alot more than that to stop leavers. Your comparison of TA vs RA doesn't hold water. Those battle types are very quickly over with whereas Alliance battles go on for quite a lot longer.

First off, "I think" infers that anything coming afterwords is an opinion so stop with your assumptions.

I am of the opinion that it will reduce the number of leavers solely because those kinds of people do not usually have the patience to form a team.

Secondly I am of the opinion that it waters down the enjoyment of Alliance battles when its probably a good idea to form a group of 3 monks/heal party e/mos and a utility player (such as MM or wards) in order to ensure the random team you get put together with will even have any healing. If you have forced groups of 4 you are more likely to get a balanced makeup of players.

If so many people have a problem getting in teams due to "elitists" just form teams among yourselves, I know I have no problem getting a team in TA.

Hell during the FPE a group of rank 9 Koreans invited me into their group and im only rank 3(I didn't even mention I was in my LFG) As long as your LFG posts are coherant, not spammed and detailed people will want you in their group. At least the kind of people you would want to play with will.

Gale Force · Apr 06, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

I keep hearing two contradictory arguements that trouble me. First one is that forming a group of four will not be much trouble, and the second is the leavers will not have the patience to get in or form a group.

Personally I don't believe either statement. Casual players may have trouble getting into groups because they won't comform to some flavor of the month build, whereas the leavers can pretend to be whatever will get them in a group.

Linkusmax · Apr 06, 2006, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Yes and both those statements mesh. It shouldn't take more then 5 minutes usually to form a group (it dosent in TA). But leavers aren't of the personaility to even want to spend that long.

This Flavour of the moth stuff is stupid. I have run totally off the wall builds and easily found a group in TA.

Loch · Apr 06, 2006, 03:13 AM // 03:13

I think the format needs a requirement for players to build a full team of 4 before entering the match. In fact, players need to be encouraged to act as this team of four in the battle, as opposed to a 12-man mob. It was too easy on the weekend to simply cap the entire map with 3 guildmates while the rest of the players sat in the middle summoning bone fiends and casting meteor showers. Players should be encouraged to complete the objective of capturing the resource points, and playing as 3 teams of 4 helps you accomplish this objective greatly.

But requiring any more than 4-player built teams would ruin the format. You're crazy if you think people want to put together and coordinate 12-man teams. If that many people are online, you may as well start some GvG.

JiggyFly · Apr 06, 2006, 04:37 AM // 04:37

I liked 12v12s but there was alot of problems that made alot of games unenjoyable.

The random leavers was one issue, where if your team was losing by more than a small margin people would simply leave, followed by a chain reaction of people quitting the match. Overall though, that can be due to the fact that alot of people who were playing were there because of the Beta weekend and had never played Guild Wars before so matches might've looked more hopless than they really were, or they just didn't care, etc.. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Also people running conflicting builds was an issue as well. Such as getting a 4 man group running an EoE bomb that basically slaughtered their own team in the process of killing the other team. Or having a solo interupt Ranger running Nature Renewal while tyring to play a Prot Monk.

Neither of them were huge issues, and the semi-randomness atmosphere was fun, but ending with 4 people at the end of a battle, or trying to play a MM while there were 3 others on your team, well that was less than enjoyable as well.

Mr.Interrupt · Apr 06, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiggyFly

I liked 12v12s but there was alot of problems that made alot of games unenjoyable.

The random leavers was one issue, where if your team was losing by more than a small margin people would simply leave, followed by a chain reaction of people quitting the match. Overall though, that can be due to the fact that alot of people who were playing were there because of the Beta weekend and had never played Guild Wars before so matches might've looked more hopless than they really were, or they just didn't care, etc.. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Also people running conflicting builds was an issue as well. Such as getting a 4 man group running an EoE bomb that basically slaughtered their own team in the process of killing the other team. Or having a solo interupt Ranger running Nature Renewal while tyring to play a Prot Monk.

Neither of them were huge issues, and the semi-randomness atmosphere was fun, but ending with 4 people at the end of a battle, or trying to play a MM while there were 3 others on your team, well that was less than enjoyable as well.

To be fair, every time my guild and I ran that EoE build we won. Every single time. Most games we went 500-100 or 500-200. We never used it to suicide overall and only used it when the points were in are favor on a bomb. We knew what we were doing and we weren't kidding around at all.

twicky_kid · Apr 06, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Dei

The irony is, if they change it to compulsory teams of 4, the elitists will ruin the format.

The joys of having bad things happen no matter what. I say side with the casual gamer and deal with the quitters.

Its not about either one. Its about new players. They have to make a balance for new players. If this was 10v10 or 12v12 cordinated the new players would be locked out.

3 teams of 4 make so people can make groups fast while having a balanced playing field.

Still no word on how alliances work exactly.

skull · Apr 06, 2006, 12:55 PM // 12:55

/ not signed

Not signed for reasons stated by others. I am a casual gamer who likes to jump in and start playing right away. For that reason I play nowadays almost exclusively in RA. I hate the long waits associated with TA and HA.

I would like to see a Random version of 8v8 as well with a chance to get to HA after 10 straight wins.

MSecorsky · Apr 06, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

IF it requires groupings of four, look for me advertising 'forming team, all welcome!'.

I'll simply accept the first three to invite and go, regardless of classes. Screw the elite! Have fun!

twicky_kid · Apr 06, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by skull

/ not signed

Not signed for reasons stated by others. I am a casual gamer who likes to jump in and start playing right away. For that reason I play nowadays almost exclusively in RA. I hate the long waits associated with TA and HA.

I would like to see a Random version of 8v8 as well with a chance to get to HA after 10 straight wins.

I still don't understand people like this. GW is a team based game. If you want to make a team quickly you need friends. Plain and simple.

If you cannot make a party in TA within a few minutes you are doing something wrong or just don't want to make friends. I know many people that are GUILDLESS and get into parties very easily.

Nothing in this game is very short. Most quest and missions will take you at least half an hour or more. TA and RA have battles that can go between 1 minute and 10 minutes with a 20 second delay between each battle. That is the shortest time span for any aspect of the game. If that doesn't fit your schedule then make time. If you don't want to make time then don't play.

You don't have to play the game all day but understand everything you do is going to take some time. I do not want the game to be watered down just to fit the fan base of some one who doesn't play often and doesn't want to make some friends. Then complains when they cannot get a group.

Evilsod · Apr 06, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

The 12v12s suffer so badly from leavers.

1 of the matches i was in a couple of people left, followed swiftly by another 8 members.
It finished up as 12v2 and we just spent the time killing the base defenders and rushing the spawn point.

EoE bombs were definatly the most entertaining methods of dieing.

Mysterial · Apr 06, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If you cannot make a party in TA within a few minutes you are doing something wrong or just don't want to make friends. I know many people that are GUILDLESS and get into parties very easily.

Sure, you can get a party in TA in a few minutes. You'll also lose almost all of the time. If you want to actually have a chance of winning a few games, you need a guild group or at least good friends who know what they're doing.

Quote:

Nothing in this game is very short.

And it's one of the game's biggest flaws. Anything that can be done to improve that situation can dramatically increase the accessibility of the game, which is important for getting more casual players that keep the player count up.

Quote:

You don't have to play the game all day but understand everything you do is going to take some time. I do not want the game to be watered down just to fit the fan base of some one who doesn't play often and doesn't want to make some friends. Then complains when they cannot get a group.

I don't see how adding new accessible gametypes is "watering the game down". If you want to play your serious, hour to find a group gametypes, they're still there. What this game needs is more stuff casual players can get in to, and 12v12 as shown in the FPE goes a long way towards providing that.

twicky_kid · Apr 06, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

And it's one of the game's biggest flaws. Anything that can be done to improve that situation can dramatically increase the accessibility of the game, which is important for getting more casual players that keep the player count up.

A casual player will buy the game play it for a while and move on to another game. They can get their $50 of value out of the game way before it gets old. If you get tired of GW move on its free to play anytime.

C2 is appealing to the casual community but you cannot compare 12vs12 team making to TA its totally different. You can go in with just about anything because you have no control over the 8 other members.

I don't think the content of the game should be less because of a casual player base. We always want more content then players complain that it takes too long. Now that's some irony.

Gale Force · Apr 06, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

You don't have to play the game all day but understand everything you do is going to take some time. I do not want the game to be watered down just to fit the fan base of some one who doesn't play often and doesn't want to make some friends. Then complains when they cannot get a group.

I don't see anyone asking for watered down content, but many are asking for choice. I don't recall anywhere in the thread seeing anyone asking for a completely random 12v12 which would eliminate your choice. Many just want to be able to enter mission without group forming and let thost who want to make thier 4 man team have that choice.

You however are the one I have a hard time understanding. You want it your way, period. Elitist

twicky_kid · Apr 07, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gale Force

I don't see anyone asking for watered down content, but many are asking for choice. I don't recall anywhere in the thread seeing anyone asking for a completely random 12v12 which would eliminate your choice. Many just want to be able to enter mission without group forming and let thost who want to make thier 4 man team have that choice.

You however are the one I have a hard time understanding. You want it your way, period. Elitist

Thanx for the laugh of the day

If you had bother to read this thread you would see that I've came to the conclusion that I don't care about this format. Also made many other points of why its the way it is because of new players and casual but ya I'm an Elitist.

If I don't like it when alliances are explained then I won't play it. 12vs12 is going to a grind format. You do it when you have nothing better to do much like what HA is.

Once again no elitist can keep a player out of 12vs12 only the player can.

1) You don't play because you don't like the format

2) You can't make a party of 4

3) Do not have enough friends to play with

4) You don't have the time

All of those options are controlled by the player himself nothing to do with the format.

Khift · Apr 07, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

/completely signed

If 12v12 doesn't become not random, or ANet does not have a hidden high end organized form of PvP in Factions, I will not buy it. I would have no reason to.

I'm not looking forward to the endgame PvE, because of the worthless town control system, and if they don't give a good high end PvP format then I would have no reason to buy factions.

DOWN with the random crap, ANet. You dangle this beautiful gem in front of our faces, and we think of how much fun and how awesome it would be, and then you tell us you can only participate with a random group? You have no idea how insulting this is to me.

Make it like TA: You can enter alone or with half a group and the other pieces of your group will be random, but allow fully organized 12-man groups to enter as well. Have the random or half-random groups get paired up against other random or half-random groups, and the organized teams against other organized teams. Anything less will gimp the format entirely.

This is supposed to be a game of skill, not a game of who can get the luckiest group.

Studio Ghibli · Apr 07, 2006, 04:53 AM // 04:53

For those suggesting that 12v12 lacks skill, see MacGyver, a rubberband, two paperclips, and a drinking straw.

In other news, a random team is -still- a team.

skull · Apr 07, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Thanx for the laugh of the day

If you had bother to read this thread you would see that I've came to the conclusion that I don't care about this format. Also made many other points of why its the way it is because of new players and casual but ya I'm an Elitist.

If I don't like it when alliances are explained then I won't play it. 12vs12 is going to a grind format. You do it when you have nothing better to do much like what HA is.

Once again no elitist can keep a player out of 12vs12 only the player can.

1) You don't play because you don't like the format

2) You can't make a party of 4

3) Do not have enough friends to play with

4) You don't have the time

All of those options are controlled by the player himself nothing to do with the format.

Hi Twicky,

Up until this point I think you were making a decent argument why you think that 12v12 shouldn't be random. I did not brand you as an elitist or anything else, you were just trying to get your point across.

After reading this however, I really am starting to think that maybe you ought to think a little bit more before you go on insulting a great majority of people playing Guild Wars.

That list you just wrote is pretty insulting and I am sorry to say a tad bit 'Elitist'.

First off there is no Right or Wrong way to play guild wars. You seem to say that people who are playing on their own for the most part are playing the game wrong...how is this possible? Why is it bad if a majority of the people want a randomized 12v12? You already have your HA, which BTW currently doesn't have a randomized equivalent...can't you be happy with that? You get all those nonsense Rank emotes and such to flaunt off. Isn't this good enough for you?

I play guild wars on a regular basis. I have belonged to many different guilds and played both PVE and PVP quite extensively. I have found that my preferred style of game play is doing Random PVP. I enjoy it. And as I stated before, I would like to get a random 8v8 going as well.

I think you really need to take a look at 90% of the responses here. I am sorry to say, that according to the responses on this thread, you are really on the wrong side of this argument.

There is a small hard core of PVP elitists that are trying to dictate the entire PVP aspect and mechanics of this game. PVP is not just for you Twicky. It is for everyone. Let other people enjoy the game as well. As you clearly said in this thread:

Quote:

Once again no elitist can keep a player out of 12vs12 only the player can.

1) You don't play because you don't like the format

All of those options are controlled by the player himself nothing to do with the format.

Let me rearrange it to be relevant in your case:

Quote:

Once again no humble / casual gamer can keep a player out of 12vs12 only the player can.

1) You don't play because you don't like the format

All of those options are controlled by the player himself nothing to do with the format. Deal with it sista!

Thank you and good night!

GunnerMan1 · Apr 07, 2006, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Well I like the semi-random way of 3 groups of 4. If you want to go in with a guild just make 2 or 3 groups and hit enter, you likey will end up on the same battle. It is chaotic now because ppl were just tryin it out and things, tell me HOH had all the bulds when GW first came out...I think not it was most likely the same way. I love being able to easily jump in and fight, if there is one thing I hate about GW it is trying to find a group. I spend more time in HA LFG then I do playing. Not my idea of fun. The 12 v 12 is just a nice laid back big map of fun. If you want to be uber-comptetive stick with the HoH and GvG. I think Anet made the arenas the way they are so ppl are not like R3+ Only group etc.

The only thing that needs changing is punishment for the quitters. Some ppl leave if they are loosing by 10 points. I think they should make soething like "If you quit you loose 100 faction." or You can not join another team for 15 mins or quit over 5 times and baned from 12 v 12 for a day or something. Also the quiters should be immediatly replaced by other players.

Also I can see faction farmers join groups and just run, hide somewhere and go watch TV. Get the faction and go make Jade and sell to merchant do it all over again. Easyway to fix this is a idle timer that replaces a idle player after so long or maybe a vote kick type deal?

Yes, the problem with 12 v 12 is ppl join for the faction and not the fun. These people need to be detured from this by harsh punishment I think.

twicky_kid · Apr 07, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Skull I think you misread my post. The elitist part at the end of the first paragraph was sarcasm. You are absolutely right there is no RIGHT way to play GW. Each player has their own format they like that is fine. Still to play that format you need the requirments for a team. That is not the formats fault if you cannot meet those requirements.

That list I pointed out is what is req for play in 12vs12. It is very easy to fill in 3 other slots in a team. Even if its random it doesn't take long. Since the format is set up with 3 teams of 4 players the creation time will be quick with minimal friends needed or none at all.

Also since there is multiple instances of the format running at one time then the elitist cannot lock you out. HA only runs every 10 minutes. Which means 1 team of all of GW will hold every 10 minutes. Add in the rank and you have an elitist environment that I hate. I'm a RANKLESS player so don't fit me into the HA player box because that's not me at all. I'm rankless because I choose not to play the format even though I've played GW since 04 beta. Once rank was introduced I left HA for good. HA and 12vs12 are both grind formats. HA has rank 12vs12 has faction. If faction is used at the merchants for items its going to get really ugly with bots. If faction is used then gold will be useless (like it usefull now) and the bots will turn to farming faction.

I'd say majority of players in this game are farmers including myself at times. Faction will be a grind fest so ya the farmers want it to stay random so they can get faction quicker. It would also allow bots to enter and just sit there and do nothing for the team to gain faction at the end of battle. If your group ends up with even 2 of these kind of bots you most likely won't win. Combine that with leavers and you have a jump in and out environment. Instead of trying to find a team you'll be trying to find a decent game. You want to make team making as effortless as possible but effort is still needed for the incentive. A player that puts effort into making a team or build for 12vs12 is more likely to stay in the battle and play continuously.

The draw backs from completely random are too deep. Yes the format is fun because its new and completely chaotic. Eventually it will implode and get very boring if kept under the same system. I see too many ways for people to abuse the random system and ruin it for everyone else.

One of the main reasons I created this post was because of the hardcore pvp fans. Since the game is a competative pvp game with pve added in these are going be the players that are going to buy every chapter just to keep up on the skills. We are being left behind with factions. We have no new competative environment. We have GvG and HA which we have been playing for over a year now and would like something new. We do get new guild halls and skills but that is it. So basicly the only reason any hardcore pvp fan is going to buy factions is for skills.

I see many skills that are going to be broken so I'm forced to by factions just to keep up. Anet can say you don't have to buy each set to remain competative but that is very untrue. They compare themselves to MTG (which is not a bad thing they know what they are doing) but its really nothing the same. MTG has many different formats you could play in limiting what edition (skills) you could use. There is nothing in GW like this so to stay competative you MUST buy each chapter to get the skills or be left behind.

Its still yet to be decided if 12vs12 will be a competative format. Still no clear explaination of how alliances work. We could argue all day because everyone has an opinion of their own or wait until its explained. Call me an Elitist it doesn't matter. That doesn't change the flaws with the system that EVERYONE will be subject to.

Anet did many things right with the format but like usually implemented poorly. Like with many other things they do. That's where Anet's greatest str is. They can change the system anytime to fix things. Just takes them forever and a day to do it.